Dr. Summer Bukeavich: Don't Get Anxious

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Welcome to Tomorrow Makers, where we explore how we learn, live, work and play now and

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in the future.

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I am Sumer Beatty.

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And I'm Carlos Ramos.

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All right.

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So we're here today with Summer Bukhevich, business professor at Penn College, and she

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is coming to us open and willing to discuss mental health through her personal journey.

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You know, we do have fun with this one again.

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We're going to say it.

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I said to her, I don't know if there's been two Summers on a podcast before, but we did

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it.

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And I just think she is so candid and open and we hope that it impacts you like it did

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us.

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And you know, even if you're not somebody who experiences anxiety, believe it or not,

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you're probably in contact with somebody and you might or might not know it.

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And you know, I felt so much calmer after this episode and there were just some clear

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ways that we could handle anxiety at any level, whether it's, you know, I'm usually pretty

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even keeled, but I can have my moments.

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I'm sure we all do.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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So, so helpful.

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And I really appreciate her coming out and doing this with us.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Here we go.

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Do it.

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Yeah.

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How are we going to do that?

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I don't know.

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You tell me.

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Do what?

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We're just going to start.

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Oh, okay.

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Do you think two Summers have ever been in a podcast together before?

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I don't know.

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We need a researcher.

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In the history of podcasts, which is still pretty early.

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Yeah.

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It's kind of strange.

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It is.

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I love it though.

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Summer B's, no less.

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Oh, right.

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Summer B.

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Yeah.

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We have a great, amazing background to Summer B's.

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So here we are.

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It's weird.

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All right.

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Are we ready?

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We're ready.

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Yeah.

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Okay, great.

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Let's do this.

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Okay.

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So I think it makes sense.

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We'll have you introduce yourself.

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Okay.

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Let us know who you are.

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Who am I?

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Yeah.

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Your role at Penn College.

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And then we can just kind of go into mental health and why that topic is kind of near

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and dear to your heart.

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Sounds good.

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So my name is Summer Bukeavich.

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And I'm actually going into my 10th year, speaking of 10 years.

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My 10th year teaching full time here at the college.

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And I taught two years prior to that as an adjunct.

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I am in business administration.

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So I teach marketing and management courses, a whole variety of them, 100 level up to 400

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level.

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And boy, what else do I do here?

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A lot, academic advising on a couple committees, advisor to the Penn College Business Club.

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So yeah, that is what I do here.

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Nice.

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Okay.

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So for some, it might be like, oh, this is interesting.

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So there's this marketing background.

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What the heck does mental health have to do with anything?

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Yeah.

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So it's funny.

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As I was sitting down this morning trying to think about, you know, oh my gosh, you

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know, how am I going to respond to these questions?

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What am I going to say?

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I was thinking about a book that I had listened to on Audible earlier this summer called Range

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by David Epstein.

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Yes.

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Either of you have heard of it.

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Oh, okay.

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Fantastic.

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So then you will know that it is about the importance of generalists in a specialized

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world.

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And so I don't know, I feel like I've always worn many hats.

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And I don't think it's a bad thing to wear many hats so long as you can balance all of

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those hats appropriately.

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Do you want to hear the origin story?

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Like how all of this came to be?

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Is that helpful?

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Sure.

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I think that would give some nice context.

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Okay.

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Gotcha.

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So connection to mental health.

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So it's interesting.

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I guess I should preface this by saying I never really thought I would be in higher ed.

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Growing up, I wanted to be a teacher, but I was dissuaded from doing so for a variety

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of reasons.

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Ended up majoring in communication in college, doing communication in grad school with a

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focus in PR.

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So very like marketing adjacent.

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But the mental health piece started when I was in college.

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And I've been very open about this and I'm willing to be very open about this now, especially.

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So when I was in college, I was a first year college student.

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Nobody in my family had ever been to college before.

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My father, single parent household, my father didn't even really understand the college

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landscape.

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I was on, you know, doing the FAFSA, you know, trying to navigate everything myself.

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And it was my sophomore year where one night I laid down in my bed to go to sleep and my

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heart started racing.

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I was like, oh, that's weird.

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Why is that happening?

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And then I started getting lightheaded and a little nauseous.

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So I got up and I was like, what's, wait, what's wrong?

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Is something wrong with me?

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What's going on?

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These are uncomfortable sensations.

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And of course I didn't have the clarity of mind to say things like that to myself at

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that moment.

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So I ran into the bathroom and I splashed water on my face and I tried to calm myself

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down and I started just shaking.

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And I'm like, what in the world is going on?

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The two thoughts that immediately popped up were, am I having a heart attack?

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Am I having a stroke?

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Like, am I having a medical emergency?

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I don't know.

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What do I do?

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Do I call 911?

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Is this nothing?

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So the solution at the time for my 19 year old self was to go out into the hallway in

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my dormitory.

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It was like two or three in the morning.

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And I just wandered the halls, drew on people's whiteboards to try and distract myself.

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And I eventually started feeling better.

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So I was like, okay, whatever it is is past.

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I'm sure I'm fine.

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Go to bed.

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I was so exhausted by that point that I was able to fall asleep pretty readily.

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But the next day I was in my astronomy class.

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Of course, I didn't really want to take, but it's one of those gen ed kind of things.

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And I started feeling those feelings again.

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And I immediately became afraid of what that might mean.

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I felt lightheaded.

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I felt kind of cold and clammy.

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And I had another panic attack.

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Of course, at that point, I didn't know it was a panic attack.

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Yeah, did you have a name for it?

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Yeah, no, I didn't have a name for it yet.

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I just knew that something weird was happening to me and it was really uncomfortable.

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And so to extend what could be a long story into a very short little capsule, they did

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end up being diagnosed as panic attacks.

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And they continued to bother me and completely alter the rest of my college career, my grad

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career and the majority of my 20s.

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Okay.

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So, yeah.

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So back to the time when you started feeling this way, how did you go from what is this?

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Am I having a heart attack?

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To putting a name on it?

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Yeah, that's a good question.

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Well, it's an interesting journey that it kind of took me into.

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I went to my primary care doctor.

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And of course, I had to drive home from college to do that, which was challenging in and of

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itself because once you start getting panic attacks and you get behind the wheel of a

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car, it's not so easy, especially if you have to drive a considerable distance.

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So I went to my family doctor and I told him my symptoms and he said, you know, that sounds

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like a textbook panic attack.

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Here's some meds.

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Go back to school.

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You're fine.

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I was like, oh, oh, okay.

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And it was comforting hearing from him that my symptoms were aligned with what panic attacks

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were.

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But I was not given coping strategies.

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I was not given a toolbox.

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I was given a bottle of pills.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Which made things really, really difficult.

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I still kind of believed what he had told me.

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Hey, you're experiencing panic attacks.

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But every single time I would get them, I would start to kind of question his diagnosis

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and rely a little bit too much on the medication that he gave me.

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So that was a huge challenge and it made the rest of my college career so much more difficult.

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I did my best, but I wasn't able to...

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How do I word this?

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I don't know.

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I wasn't really able to thrive.

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Right.

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I was going to say, yeah.

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I mean, how can you experience everything to the fullest if you're worried that's going

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to keep happening?

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Exactly.

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Was there a trigger or...

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So that's a great question.

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At that point in time, I don't necessarily think there was a defined trigger.

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I did develop triggers as time went on, mostly triggers that were related to the situations

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in which I had the panic attack.

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So first panic attack occurred while laying in my dorm room bed.

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So that became almost like a bad place.

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I had to switch my pillow to the other side of the twin bed to try and trick myself into

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thinking, hey, this is a different place.

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You're not going to panic here.

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But then once I had a panic attack in that other formulation, formulation, that other

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layout of the bed, I was like, I don't know what to do.

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I don't know where to sleep because both setups feel scary and triggering.

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And then once I had a panic attack while driving, driving became a panic trigger, which is especially

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problematic.

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I did go to school here in Williamsport and I'm originally from the Wilkes-Barre area,

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Kingston specifically.

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So if you're not familiar with Route 118, 118 kind of goes through the middle of nowhere

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when you're trying to get from Williamsport to Kingston.

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I've been upside down on 118.

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Have you?

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What?

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That's horrifying.

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Yeah.

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That is horrifying.

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It was bad.

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You're okay though.

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But I'm okay.

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You're okay.

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That's good.

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I was able to do that because I had a panic attack so severe that I just had to pull over

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and lay down in my car.

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There was no cell phone service, so I couldn't reach out to anybody.

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Thankfully, some volunteer firefighter pulled up to the car and was like, hey, are you doing

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okay?

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And I was like, not really.

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Wow.

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And so he was able to radio for an ambulance to come.

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Yeah.

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And it is the middle of nowhere.

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It really is.

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Yeah.

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So yeah.

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Just side note, we'll circle back to why Carlos was upside down.

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Yeah.

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On the 118.

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118.

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118.

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I'm not going there.

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Don't.

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Don't.

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It doesn't sound like there's no go.

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No, just take 80 if you want to walk square.

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That's why I'm going to three o'clock in the morning on tomorrow.

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Oh no.

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Three in the morning?

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Yeah.

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Watch for deer.

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Yeah.

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Oh, you can't control when the airplanes come and go though.

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So that's true.

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00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:30,040
He's going to the airport.

265
00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:31,040
Oh, okay.

266
00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:32,040
Fair.

267
00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:33,040
Yeah.

268
00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:34,040
Oh, wow.

269
00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:35,040
So what a journey.

270
00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:36,040
Oh my goodness.

271
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:43,000
So you had mentioned, which I think I know where you're going with this, hopefully, you

272
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:44,000
were given pills.

273
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,640
Like, okay, here's the solution.

274
00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,400
But it sounds like now you're, this was a bit ago.

275
00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,040
You've come a ways since then.

276
00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:51,040
Oh, yes.

277
00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:56,040
How did you, there's more to solution, a solution rather than pills.

278
00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,040
So what did you?

279
00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,240
Well, figure out who were your resources.

280
00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:06,400
Wow, that's a, this is, it's such a big question with a lot packed into it.

281
00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,880
And I'm trying to just kind of think now of how I want to organize it.

282
00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:10,880
Oh, definitely.

283
00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,000
And I'm not saying, oh, okay.

284
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:17,920
I mean, I'm guessing it's not, okay, I was not well then and I'm great now.

285
00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:18,920
Yeah.

286
00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:19,920
It's a process.

287
00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:20,920
It's always worked.

288
00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,520
It's fun to pretend like, oh yeah, I just, you know, I just flipped a switch and everything's

289
00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:24,520
fine.

290
00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,160
But no, there was a lot of hard work between that and now.

291
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:35,760
So after I first realized that, you know, the temporary short-term meds weren't going

292
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:40,800
to be effective in the long-term, I did go to see a therapist before mental health parody

293
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,340
was a thing, right?

294
00:12:43,340 --> 00:12:51,980
So it was a short one-off thing, a little session with a therapist in college, kind

295
00:12:51,980 --> 00:12:53,920
of ineffective.

296
00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,400
She told me, hey, yeah, your symptoms are consistent with panic disorder.

297
00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,600
So you know, that's good.

298
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:05,480
When you start feeling yourself, feel those anxious feelings, feeling like you're woozy,

299
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:10,680
feeling like you're hardest racing, just stop and tell yourself, stop.

300
00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:11,680
It's okay.

301
00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:12,680
You don't need to panic.

302
00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:13,680
And I was like, okay.

303
00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:15,680
Why didn't I think of that?

304
00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:16,680
Yeah.

305
00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:17,680
That's cool.

306
00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:18,880
I'll try that next time.

307
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:25,540
And I tried that next time and it didn't work, of course, because why would it?

308
00:13:25,540 --> 00:13:29,440
So I ended college thinking, that's what therapy is.

309
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,320
Okay, clearly that's not going to be helpful for me.

310
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,640
So maybe there's another kind of medication.

311
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:42,480
So I ended up getting on another type of medication, an SSRI, which, oh boy, I have a lot to say

312
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,280
about that, but I'll be kind of short and sweet about it.

313
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,200
Do you want to give an example of like what that would be?

314
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,160
So that serotonin re-uptake inhibitor.

315
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:50,160
Yes, exactly.

316
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:51,800
So specifically Paxil.

317
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:53,640
I'll never forget my doctor.

318
00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:59,360
I went to him and I said, hey, doctor, these panic attacks are still really bothering me.

319
00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:05,360
This prescription for Xanax is, it's useful sometimes, but I don't want to be on this

320
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:06,760
all the time.

321
00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,600
And he said, okay, well, we can put you on an SSRI.

322
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,360
I pulled out his prescription pad and he actually said, hmm, Selexer or Paxil?

323
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:14,360
Selexer or Paxil?

324
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:15,680
And I will go with the Paxil.

325
00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:20,120
I have some samples for you because we didn't have a whole lot of money, so I appreciated

326
00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:21,840
samples for sure.

327
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:29,840
And so I ended up on the lowest dose of Paxil in college and it was great until I couldn't

328
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:30,840
afford it anymore.

329
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:36,880
And during my senior year of college, I couldn't afford it.

330
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,280
So I said, you know, I'm just, I'm done.

331
00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:41,160
I have maybe 10 more pills.

332
00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,200
I'll take one every other day and then I'll just stop.

333
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:51,180
And this is before they knew that SSRI withdrawal symptom was a thing, but it is.

334
00:14:51,180 --> 00:14:58,560
So I ended my college career, this had to be the last two months of college, in withdrawal

335
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:04,320
from SSRIs with a symptom, a very disconcerting symptom called the brain zaps.

336
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,640
I don't know if you're familiar with those or if you've ever heard of them, but every

337
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:08,640
time you...

338
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:09,640
Explain that.

339
00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:10,640
Yeah.

340
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:15,320
Every time you turn your neck to the side, you get this like electrical sensation that

341
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:19,400
kind of runs from the top of your head down through your spine.

342
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:20,400
Oh, great.

343
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:21,400
Yeah.

344
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:22,400
It's a great way to finish out your college career.

345
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:28,280
You just, you feel wonderful and it just, yeah, it's awful.

346
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:37,480
So I somehow figured out a way and I can't remember the details of that.

347
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:43,120
I think I convinced my dad to give me $40 so I can get another month's subscription

348
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:48,120
for it or subscription, prescription so that I didn't have to deal with that because I

349
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:53,840
knew I was going on to grad school and I needed to be in good form for that because I knew

350
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,720
I had a big challenge ahead.

351
00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:03,400
And then once grad school came, it was challenging for sure.

352
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:09,840
I did my master's program at the University of Delaware and any grad program, holding

353
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:14,520
up my hands about a foot apart, there's this much reading every semester.

354
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:15,520
It's insane.

355
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:20,800
But the Paxil dulled my senses, it made a lot of things disinteresting, disinteresting,

356
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:22,280
uninteresting, one of those words.

357
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:23,280
Yeah, we got you.

358
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,240
Yeah, yeah, thank you.

359
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:32,020
So at that point I was like, you know, I'm doing well enough, maybe I can stop taking

360
00:16:32,020 --> 00:16:34,080
this medication.

361
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:40,720
And that was honestly the beginning of my mental health journey.

362
00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:45,380
I tell myself that that was the beginning because that's when I really began participating

363
00:16:45,380 --> 00:16:54,680
in mental health communities online and began publishing work as or writing basically on

364
00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:56,560
the patient experience.

365
00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:02,080
So what had happened then is I started to slowly withdraw from Paxil because I didn't

366
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,600
want those brain saps anymore.

367
00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,140
And it was a long process.

368
00:17:07,140 --> 00:17:13,680
Doctors were not convinced at that point in time, like I said, that withdrawal was a thing.

369
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:20,440
So I worked with an online community of people who were going through the same thing.

370
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:25,000
On a whim one night wrote a submission.

371
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:30,240
The LA Times had some kind of article about SSRIs and I was like, I want to write like

372
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:35,160
a letter to the editor style thing to the person who wrote that article because this

373
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,640
is like the first person who's ever written about SSRI withdrawal or referred to it or

374
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,120
something.

375
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:45,820
So there I am at like one in the morning typing out this long missive about what my experience

376
00:17:45,820 --> 00:17:47,140
was like.

377
00:17:47,140 --> 00:17:48,140
And I sent it in.

378
00:17:48,140 --> 00:17:49,280
I'm like, I'll never hear back.

379
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,600
The next day I heard back, they're like, we're going to publish your thing.

380
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,920
And I was like, oh my God, that's amazing.

381
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:56,280
So it was really exciting.

382
00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:04,280
And so ever since then, I have had a series of fortunate kind of events occur that have

383
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:09,680
kind of given me a platform to speak out about mental health experiences.

384
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:16,760
I was very hesitant when I was told that my work was going to be published because I realized

385
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,520
I'm like, I'm going to have to tell everybody now what's going on with me.

386
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,000
I really didn't tell anybody in college except for a couple of close friends.

387
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:33,000
I most certainly didn't tell anybody in grad school because grad school is kind of cutthroat.

388
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:39,560
You really don't want to show your weak side or at least back then in the late

389
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:46,080
aughts lest you be, boy, I don't want to say targeted.

390
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:47,080
It's not like that.

391
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:51,240
But you don't want to show where your weaknesses are because everyone else seems so strong

392
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:52,240
and so intelligent.

393
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:53,240
Right?

394
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,040
And imposter syndrome is a big thing.

395
00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:01,520
So I kind of like, I think the phrase I used was, you know, came out of the medicine cabinet

396
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:02,520
at that point.

397
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,040
You know, hi, I have anxiety.

398
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:05,040
My name is Summer.

399
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:06,840
I take medication.

400
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,120
This is what's going on with me.

401
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:11,640
How was that received at that time?

402
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:12,640
Surprisingly well.

403
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:13,640
Oh, good.

404
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:14,640
Surprisingly well.

405
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,000
I was very nervous.

406
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:23,680
But as people began to see that article, both within my grad school circle and in the community

407
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:28,400
in general, like when I say community, I really mean like the nation because it was the LA

408
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:29,900
Times, right?

409
00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:30,960
It was very well received.

410
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:38,720
I got, boy, I don't know, probably a dozen, two dozen emails the first day.

411
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:44,280
By the end of the first week, I probably had up to maybe about a hundred people email me

412
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:48,720
saying, oh, my God, this is exactly what I'm going through.

413
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:54,120
I have experienced that and I haven't heard anybody, anybody in public ever talk about

414
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:59,840
these withdrawal side effects from these psychiatric meds.

415
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,720
So thank you so much for putting that out there.

416
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:10,480
And I like something clicked in me when I began getting those messages again and again.

417
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,800
I was like, OK, this is something that needs to be talked about.

418
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:22,280
There is absolutely no reason to keep mental health struggles and, you know, their their

419
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,800
adjacent issues like medication therapy, et cetera.

420
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,800
There is no reason to keep that stuff quiet.

421
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:27,800
Let's talk about it.

422
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,840
This is stuff that we all experience, maybe not all of us, but many of us.

423
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:32,840
Right.

424
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,840
You know, one in four U.S. adults are living with some type of a mental illness.

425
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:38,840
So heck, isn't it time we talk about it?

426
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:39,840
Yeah.

427
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:40,840
Great point.

428
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,020
Was there anyone close to you that was like, I had no idea.

429
00:20:44,020 --> 00:20:45,800
Why didn't you come say something?

430
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:46,800
Yes.

431
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:47,800
OK.

432
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,800
So it's really funny that you mentioned that in college in particular.

433
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,240
I remember a friend of mine named Crystal.

434
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,120
I was walking to class one day and, you know, it was fall.

435
00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:58,040
I had my warm, cozy sweater on.

436
00:20:58,040 --> 00:20:59,280
I had my little messenger bag.

437
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,720
And I was just smiling on the way to class.

438
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:07,440
And Crystal comes up to me and she's like, Summer, oh, my gosh, you look so relaxed.

439
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,760
I wish I could be as calm as you are.

440
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:10,760
I'm like.

441
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,160
And inside, you're just this boiling lot of.

442
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:15,160
Exactly.

443
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,880
I'm like, God, I guess I really do hide it well.

444
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,680
But is that right?

445
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:22,680
You know?

446
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:23,680
Yeah.

447
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:24,680
Like, is that right?

448
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:25,680
Do we need to be hiding these things?

449
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:30,680
You know, I grew I grew up with a boomer dad who, you know, he was a little boy.

450
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:35,600
And, you know, kind of grew up during that time of, oh, no, if you have a problem, you

451
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:36,600
you.

452
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:37,600
Right.

453
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:38,600
You suck it up.

454
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:39,600
Yeah, you suck it up.

455
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,600
You keep it inside your chest until you die, I guess.

456
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,240
I don't know.

457
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,160
That's not but that's not my philosophy.

458
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:51,640
You know, I I feel good when I share my story and I share my experiences because I know

459
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:56,720
that there are people out there listening who also struggle with the same issues.

460
00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:02,840
And I mean, if I could have had I don't want to say a mentor, really, but if I had been

461
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:09,400
in college and I could find, you know, somebody who is older experience, somebody who's already

462
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,760
in the workforce, who would be willing to raise their hand and say, hey, I have a decent

463
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:14,760
job.

464
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:19,720
I've had success in my life and I struggle with anxiety severely.

465
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,480
But you know, I'm doing OK.

466
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:22,480
I figured it out.

467
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,440
I would have I would have had such a different experience.

468
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,800
I really thought this was the end of the world for me.

469
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:29,800
Right.

470
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:30,800
Yeah.

471
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,400
So here you are teaching at a college, you know, and if you think about your former self

472
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,160
sitting in that classroom.

473
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,040
So have you had an opportunity to be that person?

474
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:40,040
Yes.

475
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:41,040
Oh, nice.

476
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:42,040
I absolutely have.

477
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:46,140
Several students, you know, clearly won't name them, but one one student that comes

478
00:22:46,140 --> 00:22:52,920
to mind in particular, she was a nontraditional student, I think, in her later 20s, had a

479
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,760
young child and just very clearly.

480
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,240
I forget what what really kind of tipped me off.

481
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:04,720
I think it was absences, absences, you know, without communicating with me.

482
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,760
And I reached out to her one day via email and I was like, hey, you know, I just want

483
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:09,760
to check in.

484
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:10,760
You know, is everything OK?

485
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,840
I noticed that you haven't been coming to class.

486
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,120
I know you mentioned something about, you know, you have a two year old, you know, I

487
00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:19,160
have a kid.

488
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,320
Things things are challenging when you have a kid.

489
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,480
Just you know, how are things?

490
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,000
And she said that she was really struggling.

491
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,300
And so she opened up to me a little bit via email.

492
00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:34,320
So I actually referred her to counseling.

493
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,320
I don't if I remember correctly, she wasn't aware that counseling was available for free

494
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,280
on campus with her, you know, her being a student.

495
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:48,200
And she wrote back to me a couple of days later and she said, yeah, you know, counseling

496
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,520
reached out to me and I struggled with it for a few days.

497
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:58,560
I felt a little uncomfortable at first, but then I realized that I'm really grateful that

498
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,080
that's a thing that you.

499
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:01,080
Yeah.

500
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,800
And so she she did pursue counseling.

501
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:10,720
I came back to class, did fine in class, and I actually keep in touch with a student on

502
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,240
Facebook.

503
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,840
And she is thriving with her now older kiddo.

504
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:17,840
So that's awesome.

505
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:18,840
Yeah.

506
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,440
And it just it just makes my heart so happy, you know, because I feel like I'm uniquely

507
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:28,240
positioned to talk with students and to help them to at least give them resources.

508
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:29,240
Right.

509
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,240
You know, because when you're when you're a college student and you're, you know, feeling

510
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:38,880
extremely stressed, having problems with anxiety, you don't necessarily know what to do or where

511
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:39,880
to turn.

512
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:40,880
Right.

513
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:41,880
And it's a process.

514
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:42,880
It's a journey.

515
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:43,880
It really is.

516
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:44,880
Yeah.

517
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:45,880
Yeah.

518
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,000
And I think that's one of the things in life that's just fraught with change as well.

519
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,160
I'm sure that doesn't do anything to amplify.

520
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:53,160
Oh, yeah.

521
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:54,160
Nothing.

522
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:55,160
Nothing at all.

523
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,160
No, you know, it's funny.

524
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,080
I'll be well, I won't say exactly.

525
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:02,640
I'm in my late 30s.

526
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,800
I'll say that.

527
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:09,320
And as a lot of my friends are, you know, approaching 40, they're like, God, I wish

528
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:10,800
I can go back to my 20s again.

529
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:17,720
I'm like, I don't wish that because my 20s were full of confusion and difficulty.

530
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:23,840
And I just didn't know how to handle what life had thrown at me yet.

531
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,160
But that's that's something that developed over time.

532
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:28,420
Right.

533
00:25:28,420 --> 00:25:32,960
So if we do think about that process, I know you can't say, oh, just do this and it'll

534
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:33,960
fix it.

535
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:34,960
Uh huh.

536
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:40,280
But what are some of those really important steps that you have taken to get from where

537
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:41,800
you were to where you are?

538
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:42,800
OK.

539
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,840
Well, I will definitely say therapy is one of them.

540
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,720
One of those things.

541
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:53,120
And I encourage that of all students who come to me saying, like, hey, I'm having trouble,

542
00:25:53,120 --> 00:26:00,920
you know, struggling with balancing work and school or school and life or what have you.

543
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:01,920
Incredibly helpful.

544
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,440
A lot of students and I think this is changing.

545
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:05,440
Right.

546
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,920
But therapy used to be seen, at least in my circles, as something you do if you don't

547
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,120
know how to solve a problem yourself.

548
00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:18,600
And my perspective on therapy is is much different than that now.

549
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:24,040
I really think and I tell students this verbatim, going to counseling, engaging in therapy is

550
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,240
like taking a college level course on you, on yourself.

551
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:29,540
Right.

552
00:26:29,540 --> 00:26:34,340
It's like walking into a room with a big mirror and that mirror actually shows you what's

553
00:26:34,340 --> 00:26:40,460
going on in you, right, so that you can understand yourself in a new way.

554
00:26:40,460 --> 00:26:45,860
And I think that's something that we can all really benefit from more because how can we

555
00:26:45,860 --> 00:26:48,080
be, you know, we talk about tomorrow makers, right?

556
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,240
I teach management.

557
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,460
How can we be good decision makers?

558
00:26:51,460 --> 00:26:54,860
How can we be good leaders in organizations?

559
00:26:54,860 --> 00:26:58,960
How can we manage others if we can't understand ourselves?

560
00:26:58,960 --> 00:26:59,960
Right.

561
00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:00,960
Right.

562
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:02,380
You know, that all of that has to come first.

563
00:27:02,380 --> 00:27:04,240
So I encourage therapy to a lot of students.

564
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,680
Now I've done a lot of other things in my time, different types of therapy.

565
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:13,100
So I guess it's important to mention as well, excuse me, that once I went into my first

566
00:27:13,100 --> 00:27:18,760
job after grad school, well, first of all, I finished my graduate degree right at the

567
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,080
beginning of the recession.

568
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,480
So that was that was nice.

569
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:28,320
So I was underemployed for a while working in a call center.

570
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,520
Call centers are, boy, I don't know.

571
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:36,800
I've never read Dante's Inferno, but it some level of hell, some very, very deep level

572
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:37,800
of hell.

573
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:42,360
I'm imagining that episode of The Office where Michael is in the call center.

574
00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:44,240
I don't know if anyone's seen that.

575
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:45,240
I probably have.

576
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:46,480
I don't remember it, though.

577
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,480
But it paints the picture for me.

578
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:49,480
But I didn't know.

579
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,320
No, no, that's OK.

580
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,760
It's just very difficult for somebody in particular who has anxiety.

581
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,640
Right.

582
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:58,640
Because what do you do?

583
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,440
They sit you down at a desk.

584
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,640
They put a set of headphones on and they say, OK, stay there.

585
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,600
You're only allowed a six minute break to go to the bathroom.

586
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,680
Your breaks are very rigidly structured.

587
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,160
You know, and all of that feeling like I'm out of control.

588
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,720
That helped to amp up my anxiety even more.

589
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,600
Funny story about the call center that I think is worth mentioning.

590
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,960
I share this story in my organizational behavior courses because I think it's just such a good

591
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:37,960
example of not like what you should not do if you want to put people first in an organization

592
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,840
and care for their mental health and well-being.

593
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,360
We hit some sort of like metric goal.

594
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,280
And as a result, they said, hey, you guys get a pizza party.

595
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:48,840
And we're like, yeah, pizza party.

596
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:49,840
Cool.

597
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,880
You know, so there are like 20 of us.

598
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:57,320
But for business needs, in order to keep the phones adequately staffed, we all had to go

599
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,760
into this conference room and eat pizza by ourselves.

600
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,680
We all had a 10 minute time slot.

601
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,080
And then we had to return to our desk.

602
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,520
And then the next person can go to the pizza party by themselves.

603
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:10,520
By themselves.

604
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:11,520
Single person party.

605
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:12,520
Yeah.

606
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:13,520
OK.

607
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:14,520
Yeah.

608
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:20,900
So just to kind of add context to what this place was like.

609
00:29:20,900 --> 00:29:25,880
So while I was there, of course, you know, I wasn't using my skills.

610
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:31,200
I wasn't using what I had learned in grad school.

611
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,840
So the anxiety started to really come back with a vengeance.

612
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:41,720
And I started getting panic attacks again to the point where I ultimately had to leave

613
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,320
because I just simply couldn't handle it anymore.

614
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,440
And I was going somewhere with this, but I can't remember where I was going with it.

615
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:49,440
That's OK.

616
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:50,440
Oh, actually, I do.

617
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:56,080
I have my notes here and I just realized.

618
00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:05,520
That's kind of what started the transition from me being, what's the word I'm looking

619
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:11,720
for here, from anxiety having a hold on me to me beginning to have a hold on anxiety.

620
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:12,720
OK.

621
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,900
So I took some time off of work.

622
00:30:14,900 --> 00:30:21,480
That's when we actually moved up here to the Williamsport area and I ended up, as a result

623
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:31,160
of my LA Times article, I ended up being invited to write for a website called Psych Central.

624
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,680
So I began writing for their World of Psychology blog.

625
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:39,560
And then eventually they gave me my own blog called Panic About Anxiety.

626
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:45,000
And that is where I kind of hit my stride, I guess.

627
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:51,560
I started writing articles about my personal experiences, offering up tips, not from the

628
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:56,640
standpoint of a therapist, but just from the standpoint of like, oh, hi, I'm an everyday

629
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,740
human being who has experienced this.

630
00:30:59,740 --> 00:31:05,440
So let me just kind of share what it's like for somebody with an anxiety disorder at the

631
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:06,440
dentist.

632
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,960
I've got a couple tips to make things easier, et cetera.

633
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:16,960
And that made me feel super impactful.

634
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,560
You know, got a lot of comments, got a lot of emails from people saying, hey, oh my god,

635
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:21,560
thank you.

636
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:22,560
I relate.

637
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:23,560
Thank you for writing about that.

638
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:24,560
Yeah.

639
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,440
And you know, the article, maybe this is a tangent, but I'll share it anyway.

640
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:31,800
The article that I got the most feedback on, I wrote a piece about exercise-induced anxiety

641
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,280
because that's one of the things.

642
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,280
And students are told this all the time, too, right?

643
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,600
Oh, if you're anxious, go for a run.

644
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:38,600
You know, get some exercise.

645
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,120
That'll help you feel better.

646
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,400
Well, when you get panic attacks...

647
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,160
How well do you run while your heart is racing?

648
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:47,800
Well, it's not quite that.

649
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:53,680
It's that like, once your heart starts racing when you're running, it reminds you of having

650
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:54,680
a panic attack.

651
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,440
And so it's like a triggering kind of event.

652
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,560
So you know, I got all this poor advice, start running, you'll feel better.

653
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:01,760
No, no, I didn't feel better.

654
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:07,600
I just kind of felt like I was self-inducing a panic attack, which is not a very good thing.

655
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,200
And so that set me back a little bit.

656
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:14,080
But once I got to Williamsport here, and I was writing for Psych Central for a period

657
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:20,920
of time, managing my own blog, producing content, producing videos, I ended up applying for

658
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:27,720
and being accepted to, I think it was the first iteration of TEDx Williamsport.

659
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:35,600
And I did a talk there about how I managed my anxiety at the call center and how I kind

660
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,840
of climbed out of that hellhole that I had been in.

661
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,080
The general theme of that was...

662
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,360
Let me see if I remember the words here.

663
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,520
Migrate, hibernate, adapt.

664
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:55,640
I was watching a documentary, like a nature documentary show, because you know, that's

665
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:56,640
kind of nerdy.

666
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,040
You don't watch popular TV, you watch documentaries.

667
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,040
What are you going to do?

668
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,040
Nothing wrong with that.

669
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,040
Yeah, right?

670
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:07,160
And, you know, so it was about animals, and it just kind of randomly mentioned that, yeah,

671
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,200
you know, when they're in an environment that doesn't serve them, animals really only have

672
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:12,200
three options.

673
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,360
They can hibernate, they can adapt, or they can migrate.

674
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:16,840
And something about that stuck with me.

675
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:25,920
I was like, oh my God, do I have all this anxiety because I am trying to function within

676
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,160
the parameters of an environment that just doesn't work for me.

677
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:31,160
And that was a big turning point.

678
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:36,280
And I think that was actually the theme of the TEDx event, like transitions or turning

679
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,280
points or something like that.

680
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:43,160
Breakthroughs, that's what it was, breakthroughs.

681
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:49,000
So after I did that talk, I got a lot of feedback, positive feedback about that.

682
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:54,160
People from call centers all over the world, United States, India, Philippines, commenting

683
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,400
saying, oh my God, I have panic attacks at work too.

684
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,360
I hate my call center.

685
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:00,360
It's soul sucking.

686
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:01,840
I can't handle it.

687
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,520
And so that kind of thing really got me thinking.

688
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:11,840
And I got into this idea of, you know, what does it take to create a workplace that is

689
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,720
healthy for people?

690
00:34:13,720 --> 00:34:20,760
That is an environment that does support the employees, that does support others.

691
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:26,480
And I would call that the beginning of my slow transition to Penn College.

692
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:27,480
Okay, wow.

693
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:28,480
Yeah, I know.

694
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:29,480
It's a weird road.

695
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:30,480
It's a weird road.

696
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,680
No, it's the real road.

697
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:33,680
It's the real road.

698
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:34,680
Yeah, that happens.

699
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:35,680
True.

700
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,680
So it sounds like community was huge for you.

701
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:44,880
You started researching topics online and then being part of an online community.

702
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:50,560
And then also almost forming a community by way of this outreach, be it through articles

703
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,520
or through the TED talk, whatever it is.

704
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,680
So how has that transformed into your today?

705
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:04,320
Like, are there any communities that you're part of now or anything that I'm just thinking

706
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,360
for listeners that are thinking, wow, this resonates with me.

707
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,540
Is there something I should be a part of?

708
00:35:10,540 --> 00:35:17,280
Is there something I should be a blog or a podcast or how do they...

709
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:18,280
You know where I'm going with this?

710
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:19,280
Yeah.

711
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:20,280
I don't know if there's anything.

712
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:25,000
You know, there's a podcast I like listening to called the Anxious Overachiever.

713
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,360
I swear it's not my own podcast.

714
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:35,760
You would think it were though, where they basically interview anxious overachievers,

715
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:37,000
which I think I qualify as.

716
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:46,200
So that's one recommendation, but my other recommendations are a little bit more nebulous.

717
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:51,980
There's no one particular community that I've found solace in, but my recommendation would

718
00:35:51,980 --> 00:35:55,000
be just try to find a community.

719
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,720
It used to be a lot more difficult than it is now.

720
00:35:57,720 --> 00:35:58,720
I would think so.

721
00:35:58,720 --> 00:35:59,720
Yeah.

722
00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:01,160
It seems so much more...

723
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:06,080
Everyone seems open now and it's just more, I don't want to say mainstream, but it's more

724
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:07,080
talked about.

725
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:08,080
It is.

726
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:16,320
And I know that social media gets, we'll say, crapped on a lot for a lot of reasons.

727
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,680
And some of those reasons are very justifiable.

728
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:24,160
But I mean, one of the things I wrote about for Psych Central was the intersection of

729
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,000
technology and mental health.

730
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:34,600
And so that's something that I've been continually interested in even throughout my journey professionally.

731
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,880
I haven't done any work with it professionally, but it's definitely something that I'm always

732
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,840
kind of noticing and focusing on.

733
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:52,160
And TikTok, of all places, TikTok seems to have, and I say this cautiously, because if

734
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,440
you're on the wrong side of TikTok, you're not going to see this kind of content.

735
00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:03,960
But once you start liking positive content that is related to a mental health issue with

736
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:08,280
which you identify, you start seeing more and more of that content.

737
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:13,320
And TikTok is a place where I have found a pretty decent community of folks.

738
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,480
Now I'm not really a creator on there.

739
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:21,880
I've kind of put content creation on the backseat ever since beginning to teach because, I mean,

740
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:26,320
let's face it, teaching takes a lot of time and work and energy, right?

741
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:31,040
And I'm all about protecting my energy now to make sure that my anxiety stays below the

742
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,560
threshold over which it would cause problems.

743
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:41,640
But there really is, I think there's really a community to be found out there on TikTok

744
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,400
and on Instagram as well.

745
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:49,440
When I was going through my doctoral dissertation process a couple of years ago in 2020 during

746
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:50,440
a global pandemic.

747
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,440
You have great timing with your educational achievements.

748
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:54,440
I do, honestly.

749
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:59,080
Oh gosh, it's ridiculous.

750
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:03,280
But I found a community on there of other people who were working on their EDDs and

751
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,280
PhDs at the same time.

752
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:11,160
And honestly, even if it's just one or two people who you can empathize with, who can

753
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,920
empathize with you, who can understand what you're going through in some of your struggles,

754
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,560
it can honestly make a world of difference.

755
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:18,560
Right.

756
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:24,320
So even if you're not the one struggling and it's important to be aware of what's happening

757
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,380
with those around you, the people you're working with, the people you, within your family,

758
00:38:28,380 --> 00:38:30,480
your friend group, everyone.

759
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,200
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

760
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,760
And I do think that people talk more about mental health now.

761
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,200
And I've often chewed on that question, like, you know, why?

762
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:39,320
What exactly changed?

763
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:46,240
Is it just the fact that social media exists or are we seeing a greater cultural shift?

764
00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:53,360
Does it have something to do with, you know, Gen Z being primarily raised by Gen X?

765
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,640
You know, boomers are kind of, you know, aging upward.

766
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,800
You know, it's many of us millennials are like, you know, still kind of struggling with

767
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:02,800
it.

768
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:07,560
But I, a lot of my students are Gen Z and they're just so willing to come to me and

769
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:14,640
be like, oh, yeah, hey, so I have bipolar disorder or hey, I have ADHD.

770
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,080
You know, can we talk about this or that?

771
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,560
And I'm like, wow, you guys are just coming throwing it out there.

772
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:21,560
And that's amazing.

773
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,840
Like, I, I absolutely love that.

774
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:30,720
And I really think that the world is changing for the better in that regard.

775
00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:31,720
Yeah.

776
00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:32,720
Yeah.

777
00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:37,040
So back to you had mentioned that they were just very forthcoming with that information.

778
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:42,520
Did you feel a sense of relief when you, you know, put those articles out there and came

779
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,040
out and finally was just like, you know what?

780
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:46,040
Yeah.

781
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,080
I got this going on and it is what it is.

782
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:49,080
Yeah.

783
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,080
Yeah.

784
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,080
Yeah.

785
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:59,480
So I think authenticity is very important for wellness, right?

786
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:06,880
If you are trying to present a version of yourself to the world that doesn't fully represent

787
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:12,960
who you are, I think in the end, you kind of end up burnt out, right?

788
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:17,400
Because maintaining that mask, maintaining that facade, maintaining that, oh, yes, I'm

789
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:23,800
a great professional who can do anything and I can, you know, what did job job descriptions

790
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:29,240
read like, like, oh, we're looking for somebody who is a self-starter, who's task orient or

791
00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:32,280
detail oriented and can handle simultaneous tasks.

792
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,440
It's like, no, that's, that's not me.

793
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,080
Like that's not me at all.

794
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:38,080
Right.

795
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:43,480
And I, for the period of my life, when I was working in industry, when I was trying to

796
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:51,440
be exactly that, I think that's one of the things that really ramped up my anxiety.

797
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:56,360
And so over the years, I've learned honestly that authenticity is, is what is going to

798
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:04,080
result in, I mean, so many better outcomes, but professionally, when you are authentic,

799
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:10,080
you're going to find a better person, organization fit to use a term that we use in organizational

800
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,460
behavior.

801
00:41:13,460 --> 00:41:17,960
And I think that's to everybody's benefit, not only organization or not only people,

802
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:19,680
but organizations as well.

803
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:20,680
Yeah.

804
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:21,680
Yeah, definitely.

805
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,800
So, how does mindset factor into all of this?

806
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,080
I mean, that's huge, right?

807
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,240
That's something that's being talked about a lot.

808
00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:33,080
So is that part of your, we'll say practice.

809
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,200
So I have a couple things to say about mindset.

810
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:42,360
So when I think about mindset, I really think about self-talk, right?

811
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:47,320
And the things that we say to ourselves really do matter.

812
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:53,320
And I know it sounds kind of like woo woo to say that, right?

813
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,920
You know, I'm not standing in front of the mirror every morning saying like, you are

814
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,960
intelligent, you are capable, right?

815
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:03,680
Even though I'm asking my seven-year-old to do that sometimes, because I feel like it's

816
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,440
a whole other line of questioning because being a parent, right?

817
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,840
I'm like, okay, so there's all this, everything you've learned, and then you're wanting to

818
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,760
make sure this little person does the right things, right?

819
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:14,880
Exactly, exactly.

820
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:19,760
So I don't do that, but the stories that we tell ourselves about the experiences that

821
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,800
we undergo, I think are really valuable.

822
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:28,000
So I had a professor in college who had us do this little activity with language.

823
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:35,360
And I honestly cannot remember what her rationale for this activity was, but I've kind of, you

824
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:36,820
know, changed it up a little bit.

825
00:42:36,820 --> 00:42:41,280
And I do this with my students, right, to give them a sense of understanding of the

826
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,660
way language can impact the way we think.

827
00:42:43,660 --> 00:42:50,480
So if I were to do this with you right now, I would say, hey, Carlos, hey, Summer, I am

828
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,200
going to give you two pairs of opposites.

829
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:59,160
Or I'm sorry, a pair of opposites, like hot and cold.

830
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:03,160
What word describes the middle of that?

831
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,880
Like what's directly in the middle of hot and cold?

832
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:06,880
Middle right to warm.

833
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:07,880
Warm?

834
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:08,880
Yeah, warm.

835
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:09,880
Okay.

836
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:11,080
How about top and bottom?

837
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,880
This is fascinating because I was thinking of food.

838
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,760
I was thinking ice cream and then coffee.

839
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,160
And then I'm like, what's in the middle?

840
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:22,160
I don't know.

841
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:23,160
Ice coffee.

842
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:24,160
Yeah.

843
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,040
So that's so funny how the brain works.

844
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:27,040
It's true.

845
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:28,040
We're all so different.

846
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,040
Yep, this is true.

847
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:31,040
Okay.

848
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:32,040
What's the lesson?

849
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,040
Well, I have two more.

850
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:34,040
Seriously, it's tough.

851
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:35,040
I was going to say, there's more questions.

852
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:36,040
Yeah, there are.

853
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:37,040
I'm like, what a good quiz.

854
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:38,040
Top and bottom.

855
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,680
What's the term that would fall in the, and I don't want to say the-

856
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:42,680
The middle.

857
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:43,680
The middle.

858
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:44,680
Okay, left and right.

859
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:45,680
Center.

860
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:46,680
Center.

861
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:47,680
Okay.

862
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:48,680
Now I'm falling in line here.

863
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:49,680
There's going to be a trick question here.

864
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,480
It's going to be like, what do you put in a toaster?

865
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,680
How about happy and sad?

866
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:55,680
Content.

867
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:56,680
Content.

868
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:57,680
Okay.

869
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,400
Okay, I think we've done enough.

870
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,280
So think about those words.

871
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,920
Middle, medium, lukewarm, whatever we said before, content.

872
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:07,920
Mocha.

873
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:08,920
Mocha.

874
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:09,920
Other than mocha.

875
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:10,920
Okay.

876
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,800
All of those words are fairly bland, right?

877
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,520
They're not super sexy.

878
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:16,520
They're not super exciting.

879
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:24,680
So when we tell stories to ourselves, at least this is what I've seen in my own brain, we

880
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,940
tend to exaggerate to make those stories exciting and interesting.

881
00:44:28,940 --> 00:44:33,480
So there's many times where I've walked into work, back when I was working in industry

882
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,000
saying things like, oh my God, I'm exhausted.

883
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,360
And then I checked myself.

884
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,960
I'm like, am I really exhausted or am I just mildly tired?

885
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:46,460
Mildly tired doesn't have the same kick to it as exhausted does, right?

886
00:44:46,460 --> 00:44:52,080
So I'm being bold in my language to be interesting, but I'm also telling myself a story that is

887
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:56,600
a little bit exaggerated and that I'm internalizing that story.

888
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,760
Do we really want to be doing that, right?

889
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:09,640
Our language has no very descriptive, beautiful, sexy words for those middle ground concepts,

890
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:10,640
right?

891
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:17,100
And so I think that's an important lesson to learn because our language in and of itself

892
00:45:17,100 --> 00:45:20,480
can kind of help us to exaggerate.

893
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:26,840
And so I try, when you talk about mindset, like I said, I think of self-talk.

894
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:33,720
I try to catch myself when I am telling myself a story about the kind of day I had or the

895
00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:36,460
kind of stressor that I know I'm about to experience, right?

896
00:45:36,460 --> 00:45:40,920
So we're coming up on the fall 23 semester.

897
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,360
I have a lot to prep.

898
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:46,240
Now I said the word a lot.

899
00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:49,540
I kind of wanted to say, I have a million things to prep.

900
00:45:49,540 --> 00:45:51,780
I don't have a million things to prep.

901
00:45:51,780 --> 00:46:00,520
So I think just checking yourself for exaggeration and correcting yourself, getting yourself

902
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:06,680
back to reality can be really helpful in reducing anxiety.

903
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,760
So that's where I think mindset comes in.

904
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:10,640
Yeah, I think that's great.

905
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:14,760
Can I say a word on mindfulness while we're talking about words that start with mind?

906
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:15,760
Okay.

907
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:17,040
So I did my dissertation on mindfulness.

908
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:21,000
So many people might look at me and think, oh my gosh, you must be a huge advocate of

909
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,000
mindfulness.

910
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:27,960
And to a degree I am, but I will say when I was at the University of Delaware in what

911
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:37,660
I call grad school round one, so my masters, I took a group therapy class basically for

912
00:46:37,660 --> 00:46:39,740
people who were dealing with anxiety.

913
00:46:39,740 --> 00:46:43,140
And that's where I was first introduced to mindfulness.

914
00:46:43,140 --> 00:46:46,320
And I had a hell of a time with it.

915
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:52,120
It was so incredibly hard because what is mindfulness?

916
00:46:52,120 --> 00:47:00,480
It's paying attention to the present moment intentionally without judgment.

917
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,720
What distresses somebody with panic disorder the most?

918
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:11,680
Often, the present moment, those uncomfortable sensations, the feeling of your heart beating,

919
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:17,120
the feeling of feeling a little sweaty, clammy, et cetera.

920
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:25,480
So mindfulness over the years has kind of become, I've become more friendly with it.

921
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:30,720
But for beginners, it's not a be all and all solution.

922
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:35,680
And if I could also say my piece about mindfulness kind of on the societal level.

923
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:41,040
I mean, mental health is a, it's a huge issue now, especially post COVID, right?

924
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:46,120
We have more people who need therapy, who are seeking therapy than we have mental health

925
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:47,760
therapists out there.

926
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:52,800
So a lot of organizations are saying, hey, here's some mindfulness activities.

927
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:57,460
And for those who obviously can't see, which is anybody, I'm like, I'm like pretending

928
00:47:57,460 --> 00:47:59,200
to throw something in the air here.

929
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:00,200
Right?

930
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:01,200
T-shirts.

931
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,200
Here's mindfulness for you, for you, for you.

932
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,440
Does that work?

933
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:06,440
I don't know.

934
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,320
Maybe it works for a couple of people.

935
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:17,360
But when organizations tell their employees, like, hey, you should try to be mindful, that

936
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:27,200
puts the impetus on the individual to deal with anxiety that might stem not from themselves

937
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:34,380
and the way that they're handling the world, but from the organization at large, placing

938
00:48:34,380 --> 00:48:36,720
unreasonable requests on the employee.

939
00:48:36,720 --> 00:48:44,200
That might come from, you know, stresses from society that, you know, cannot really be responded

940
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:45,480
to with mindfulness.

941
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:46,480
Right?

942
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:53,880
So to me now, I see mindfulness kind of as a, it has the potential to just be a band-aid

943
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,760
fix if it's not implemented the right way.

944
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:01,080
If somebody seeks out mindfulness and uses it for their own benefit to help them with

945
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:06,600
anxiety or depression or any other, you know, mental health issue, fantastic, but if it

946
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:15,200
is given to somebody from an authority, from an organization, I really think it's just

947
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:19,640
a quick fix that's hiding potentially a larger problem.

948
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:25,160
I think it's important to mention, excuse me, that mental health, you know, we often

949
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:29,440
look at individuals and say, oh, if that person's having a mental health problem, you know,

950
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:33,600
there's probably something in their brain, brain chemical related, maybe it has to do

951
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,080
with trauma they experience and maybe all of that's true, but we also have to look at

952
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:44,800
the environment in which an individual works, lives, plays, and ask ourselves, does the

953
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,680
environment serve and support that person?

954
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:50,480
So that's my piece on that.

955
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:55,760
Well, that's interesting, but you got your masters in mindfulness?

956
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:56,760
No.

957
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,440
My masters was in communication and public relations.

958
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:00,440
Yeah.

959
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:01,440
So my doctoral dissertation.

960
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:02,440
Oh, okay.

961
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:03,440
So you're, yeah.

962
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:04,440
Okay.

963
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:05,440
No, that's okay.

964
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,480
And I'm like, wait a minute, does she like, I can't tell if you're like for it or not,

965
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,040
but it's obviously something you were like, I want to dig into this a little bit more.

966
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:13,040
Yeah, exactly.

967
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:18,560
Well, and my research was primarily on what students here at Penn College perceive mindfulness

968
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:24,440
to be and how they envision it potentially being a part of their management career.

969
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:32,000
So I interviewed current management students, asked about their perceptions of mindfulness,

970
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:37,240
how they engage in mindful activity and where they see that kind of intersecting with their

971
00:50:37,240 --> 00:50:38,640
careers if at all.

972
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:39,640
Okay, I understand.

973
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:40,640
Okay, gotcha.

974
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:41,640
Nice.

975
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:49,600
No, do we have, I feel like I went totally off the book here.

976
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:50,600
I'm so sorry.

977
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:51,600
No, don't apologize.

978
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,880
I gave you questions and didn't really ask them in any particular order.

979
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,200
I tend to encourage people to do that.

980
00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:59,480
I mean, life is all about tangents, right?

981
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:04,400
I feel like that's how we find the good stuff.

982
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:09,600
When we stick to a script, we don't often, I don't know, we don't often find the fun

983
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:10,600
stuff.

984
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:16,640
I mean, if there's anything else you wanted, we can talk about some of the questions.

985
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:17,640
I'm not in a huge hurry.

986
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:18,640
It's up to you.

987
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:25,600
What would you, what tools would you suggest to someone who they've been listening to this

988
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,200
and they're still like, I'm just still not comfortable.

989
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:35,820
Like I am so, I have so much anxiety about my anxiety and the idea of expressing this

990
00:51:35,820 --> 00:51:38,460
to someone.

991
00:51:38,460 --> 00:51:40,720
What are some tools that they could turn to?

992
00:51:40,720 --> 00:51:42,240
It's a great question.

993
00:51:42,240 --> 00:51:44,520
It's funny that you said anxiety about anxiety.

994
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:51,040
My blog was called panic about anxiety, so, you know, very, very meta, right?

995
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,960
There's so many wonderful resources on the internet.

996
00:51:54,960 --> 00:52:01,320
I can't name any of them because it's been a while since I personally needed them, you

997
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:09,900
know, but I think where a lot of us struggle and this is, you know, this is obviously coming

998
00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:15,480
from my own experience and not everybody else's, but, you know, the folks I've talked to, the

999
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:24,520
people who've emailed me, we have expectations for ourselves, right?

1000
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:30,240
And when we struggle to meet those expectations, I think that's something that can really feed

1001
00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:33,480
into anxiety.

1002
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:42,640
And I think if we begin to learn how to talk to ourselves as if we're talking to a friend,

1003
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:49,840
I think that can help kind of soften some of those hard feelings, if that makes sense,

1004
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:51,480
right?

1005
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:58,280
For example, you know, every time I, I don't say every time, but, you know, just thinking

1006
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:03,160
back to some situations in my past where I have a perfectionistic streak, it's true,

1007
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:09,760
I do, where I have wanted to do really well at something and I've kind of, kind of only

1008
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:17,760
hit like 80, 85%, you know, I could, I occasionally will get really hard on myself.

1009
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:22,420
And the self-talk that we engage in there, I think is really important, right?

1010
00:53:22,420 --> 00:53:26,520
And so what I've started doing, and I think it was, it was either a therapist or honestly

1011
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,080
a friend from the internet who told me about this.

1012
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:36,120
I can't remember which, but ask yourself, you know, the things that you're telling yourself,

1013
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,600
would you tell that to a friend?

1014
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:40,080
You know, would you?

1015
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:41,080
Oh, sure.

1016
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:42,080
Yeah.

1017
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:45,080
I bet most people would say, no way, I would never say that to someone else.

1018
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:46,080
Oh, absolutely.

1019
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:47,080
Right?

1020
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:51,460
So if you're caught in that spiral of like, oh my God, I'm never going to get out of this

1021
00:53:51,460 --> 00:53:53,240
panic spiral.

1022
00:53:53,240 --> 00:53:54,880
This is, you know, I'm doomed.

1023
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,420
There's no way I can ever get better.

1024
00:53:57,420 --> 00:53:59,400
Would you say that to your best friend?

1025
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,280
Like, Hey, Jennifer, you're doomed.

1026
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:03,680
You're never going to get out of this.

1027
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:05,120
Like, no, no, you would not.

1028
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:06,520
Who in their right mind would do that?

1029
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,840
So why in the world do we do that to ourselves?

1030
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:10,840
Right?

1031
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:11,840
Right.

1032
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:13,600
Catching ourselves saying those things.

1033
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:17,240
So that's the big challenge, right?

1034
00:54:17,240 --> 00:54:21,640
And it took a long time for me to get to that point where I could kind of actively monitor

1035
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,280
my stream of consciousness as I'm talking.

1036
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:25,280
Right.

1037
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,800
So I think that's an important skill set for people to eventually develop.

1038
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:36,120
But when you're in the throes of panic or anxiety or depression or anything like that,

1039
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:39,400
you got to reach out to somebody, somebody that you trust.

1040
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,240
I mean, it doesn't always have to immediately be a therapist.

1041
00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:43,440
It could be a trusted friend.

1042
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,840
It could be a professor, you know, it could even be now.

1043
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,000
It could even be Siri.

1044
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,200
Can I tell a fun story offering?

1045
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,720
Oh, do you want a good story?

1046
00:54:54,720 --> 00:54:55,720
Sure.

1047
00:54:55,720 --> 00:54:57,320
OK, so that's why we're here.

1048
00:54:57,320 --> 00:54:58,640
I think I read about this.

1049
00:54:58,640 --> 00:54:59,640
Did you?

1050
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:00,640
I think so.

1051
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:01,640
My thing.

1052
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:02,640
From your blog.

1053
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:03,640
So you Googled me.

1054
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:04,640
Yeah.

1055
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:05,640
As I would expect somebody in PR to do.

1056
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:11,760
So 11 or 12 years ago, so I printed out some notes on this just in case I was going to

1057
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:12,760
bring it up.

1058
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:18,280
So 11 or 12 years ago, when my husband got his first iPhone and I got my first iPad,

1059
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:19,880
Siri came on the scene.

1060
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:20,880
She was new.

1061
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:29,480
I still had that old weird robotic voice and I was on Twitter too much, but I was on Twitter

1062
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:36,600
and I saw somebody make a post that said I asked Siri or I said to Siri, Hey, Siri, I

1063
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,760
want to jump off of a bridge.

1064
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:46,000
And Siri responded back with something like, oh, here's the closest bridge.

1065
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,320
Here's the directions to get to the closest.

1066
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:51,160
And I saw that tweet and I was like, you're kidding me.

1067
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,240
That is not that's not good.

1068
00:55:53,240 --> 00:55:54,240
Right.

1069
00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:55,240
So ever curious.

1070
00:55:55,240 --> 00:55:58,680
I went to my iPad or my husband's iPhone.

1071
00:55:58,680 --> 00:55:59,680
I got an iPhone.

1072
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:00,680
I can't remember.

1073
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:08,120
And I started playing with Siri and actually made a video and it's still on YouTube and

1074
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:09,880
it's called talking to Siri about suicide.

1075
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:12,240
So I started with some innocuous things.

1076
00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:15,320
Well, not really innocuous, somewhat innocuous things like Siri.

1077
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:19,360
I'm depressed just to see how she would respond.

1078
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:20,360
Siri I don't want to live anymore.

1079
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:25,960
And yeah, I escalated and Siri just she was good for nothing.

1080
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:27,320
She was good for nothing.

1081
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:29,400
I said, Siri, I want to kill myself tomorrow.

1082
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,920
And so she like made an appointment for me for the next day.

1083
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:33,920
Yeah.

1084
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:34,920
Yeah.

1085
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:35,920
Siri, I want to sleep forever.

1086
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:36,920
She gave me a list of hotels.

1087
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:42,600
Oh, so so I made a video about that.

1088
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:46,200
And I'm like, all right, this has to this kind of has to be exposed.

1089
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:47,200
Right.

1090
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:52,000
I know she's just this little AI digital assistant.

1091
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:57,040
But in my mind, thinking about the future, I was like, AI is going to you know, this

1092
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:01,080
is going to grow like eventually series going to do more and be more.

1093
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:02,080
Right.

1094
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,640
So I posted that video to YouTube and I got a lot of flack about it.

1095
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:08,800
And a lot of people if you scroll through the comments, a lot of people are like, well,

1096
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:10,960
of course, she wouldn't like give you any real help.

1097
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,880
I mean, she's just like a robot that lives in your phone.

1098
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:18,400
And now look at the way we use digital assistance.

1099
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:23,180
They're much more integrated into our lives.

1100
00:57:23,180 --> 00:57:27,240
You know, between Siri and Alexa and it just, you know, things have really changed.

1101
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:33,720
So after I posted that video, there was a comment that I got on that video that I will

1102
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:35,720
never forget.

1103
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:41,480
And it said, Summer, a colleague sent this video to me and I contacted Apple and sent

1104
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,660
the video with the guidance of a group of national advisors.

1105
00:57:44,660 --> 00:57:45,720
We worked with Apple.

1106
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:50,460
So Siri would refer persons wanting help for suicide to the National Suicide Prevention

1107
00:57:50,460 --> 00:57:51,540
Lifeline.

1108
00:57:51,540 --> 00:57:53,060
This change is in effect.

1109
00:57:53,060 --> 00:57:55,640
Many news articles on this change are now posted on the web.

1110
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:56,720
Thanks again, Summer.

1111
00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:02,000
You really made a difference from John Draper, PhD, the director of the National Suicide

1112
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:03,400
Prevention Lifeline.

1113
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:04,400
Wow.

1114
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:09,960
So that was kind of my peak in mental health advocacy.

1115
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,000
I was absolutely floored.

1116
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:13,000
And it's true.

1117
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:19,800
If you ask Siri now for some type of mental health help, whether it's, you know, fairly

1118
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:26,480
benign or fairly serious, she will not only refer you to the National Suicide Prevention

1119
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:31,560
Lifeline, she will offer to call for you and connect you.

1120
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:32,560
That's amazing.

1121
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:34,400
Because yeah, I think it's really amazing.

1122
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:37,920
I mean, we, especially students now, right?

1123
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:38,920
Early 20s.

1124
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,720
Everyone is just so tech dependent.

1125
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:48,080
And there might be that instance where this thing, this phone that I'm holding up and

1126
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:50,400
shaking is maybe your only support.

1127
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:56,400
So to go back to your question, even if you can't reach out to a person, a human being,

1128
00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:03,920
which is still preferable, it's amazing to me that there are digital tools now that can

1129
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:10,040
provide you with at least some degree of crisis level support, maybe not support in and of

1130
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:15,400
itself, but connection to supports that can help you.

1131
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:16,400
That's awesome.

1132
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:17,400
So have you?

1133
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,400
We'll post a link to that article and to the video so people can see that.

1134
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:21,400
Oh, cool.

1135
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:29,480
There's some keys in how you communicate as well when you're putting yourself out there,

1136
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:36,320
when you're putting it out on the line that resonate with those that are in a position

1137
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:40,960
to take that change that you're calling for and put it into effect.

1138
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:44,240
You never know who's going to see what you post.

1139
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:48,800
And I tell my students that in a completely different context, like don't post stupid,

1140
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,640
stupid stuff that you're going to regret later on.

1141
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:59,160
And I have those feelings initially posting about mental health related content.

1142
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:04,480
But in this instance, I think it's really beneficial and it's made some positive changes

1143
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:05,480
in the world.

1144
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:06,480
So good job.

1145
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:07,480
Thank you.

1146
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:08,480
Thank you.

1147
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:09,480
I didn't know that.

1148
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:10,480
I guess it's a fun story.

1149
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:11,480
I haven't really publicized it before, but I figured now would be a good time to do it.

1150
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:19,240
Given the conversation that we're having.

1151
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:22,200
Yeah, perfect.

1152
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:26,520
Thanks for sharing that.

1153
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:32,320
So I guess like, is there anything we're missing?

1154
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:34,400
Yeah, I think there is one.

1155
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:35,400
There's one angle here.

1156
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:39,600
So, you know, we've talked about the individual that's dealing with anxiety.

1157
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:46,800
How about those that are maybe you don't maybe there's somebody who's in your life in your

1158
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:50,880
circle, who's dealing with anxiety, and sometimes we can see it.

1159
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:57,160
But I think a lot of times, as we've acknowledged here earlier, it's hidden.

1160
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:07,680
How do we learn to better recognize that from people that are in our lives that might be

1161
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:15,160
dealing with that level of anxiety that is crippling, but they're hiding it so well?

1162
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:18,040
That's a great question.

1163
01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:19,200
That's a great question.

1164
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:27,200
I think people who've experienced it before are more likely to be able to recognize that,

1165
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:30,280
but it's still challenging.

1166
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:42,160
I am one of the things that I've done is I like to give people space to ask or to answer

1167
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:43,160
questions, right?

1168
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:50,040
So sometimes I'll be sitting down with a student and I'll say, you know, hey, you, you know,

1169
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:53,340
you haven't been turning in your assignments, right?

1170
01:01:53,340 --> 01:01:54,340
How are you?

1171
01:01:54,340 --> 01:01:59,460
And I'll just I'll pause almost to the point of awkwardness, right?

1172
01:01:59,460 --> 01:02:07,920
And I feel like that pause extends an invitation, right?

1173
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:15,480
And some of the things that that students respond with after I give them that pause,

1174
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:21,600
which I think communicates to them that like, hey, I'm really allowing you to speak here.

1175
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:28,720
Some of the things that they come back with are really deep and really heavy.

1176
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:34,720
So I think if anybody, those of us, whether we have experience with a mental health issue

1177
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:42,560
or not, asking questions of others, really genuinely wanting to know how people are doing,

1178
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:44,240
not just that, oh, hey, how are you doing?

1179
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:45,240
Oh, I'm doing great.

1180
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:47,520
Like, no, let's let's go beyond that.

1181
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:49,280
That pause is huge.

1182
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:59,560
Let's be a little bit more authentic and, you know, unafraid of receiving an answer

1183
01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:00,560
that might not be the most positive.

1184
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:01,560
That's true.

1185
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:02,560
You ask and you might receive.

1186
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:03,560
Yeah.

1187
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:04,560
So be ready.

1188
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:06,560
Right, right.

1189
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:07,600
Exactly.

1190
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:12,280
And you know, I think one of the best things that we can do just as humans is listen to

1191
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:13,740
one another.

1192
01:03:13,740 --> 01:03:16,760
We can't solve everybody's problems, right?

1193
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,240
But you know, sometimes listening is all that we need.

1194
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:22,720
And I tell my husband all the time and I love him.

1195
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:24,000
He's a problem solver, though.

1196
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:27,280
So sometimes I'll come home from work and be like, oh, my God, you wouldn't believe

1197
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:28,760
this thing that happened today.

1198
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:33,200
And I'll tell him the thing and he'll try to craft a solution for me.

1199
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:36,800
And I'll say, no, no, no, no, that's not what I need right now.

1200
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:42,480
I just I need you to listen to what I'm saying.

1201
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:43,480
And that's it.

1202
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:44,480
That's it.

1203
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:45,480
I don't need a solution.

1204
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:46,840
I don't need a solution.

1205
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:48,920
But I just need your ear.

1206
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:53,320
And I think if we could more clearly communicate that to others, right, whether we're having

1207
01:03:53,320 --> 01:04:00,680
a conversation with them to receive advice or just to receive that helpful ear, you know,

1208
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:02,320
why not put that on the forefront?

1209
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:07,760
Why not actually state those things so that you can receive what you what you need from

1210
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:10,680
a friend or a colleague or whoever you're talking to?

1211
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:17,600
I think that's great advice just to to listen, one, listen and really, truly listen.

1212
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:18,600
Yeah.

1213
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:21,960
And because I'm the same way as your husband.

1214
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:23,440
I'm like, OK, I'm analyzing.

1215
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,880
I'm like, OK, if I was in this situation, here's what I do.

1216
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:29,000
I might do this, might do that, might do the other thing.

1217
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:30,800
And I'm exploring 50 different options.

1218
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:33,040
And I'm saying, OK, are you ready?

1219
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:34,040
Here we go.

1220
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:36,280
You can do this, this, this, this.

1221
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:41,080
And rather than that, I probably should just say, tell me more.

1222
01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:45,880
Unless someone you're talking to really wants a problem solver, you know, and if they do

1223
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:46,880
it, it's OK to ask, right?

1224
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:50,320
Like, are you looking for a solution or do you just need someone to listen?

1225
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:51,320
Yeah.

1226
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:53,960
Although that might, I guess, depends on your audience.

1227
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:54,960
Yeah.

1228
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:59,420
And I think we all have to consider our personal boundaries, too.

1229
01:04:59,420 --> 01:05:03,480
You know, there's been instances where a student will come with or come to me, you know, with

1230
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:08,680
an issue and I'll be like, hey, I am having a rough day myself.

1231
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:11,000
Can we meet tomorrow at 2 o'clock?

1232
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:12,920
And you know, we'll talk about your options, right?

1233
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:21,360
I think protecting our own energy is just as important because I have, so if you come

1234
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:24,960
into my office, don't come into my office because it's a mess.

1235
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:29,860
But if you come into my office, you'll see on the wall in front of my computer, I have

1236
01:05:29,860 --> 01:05:32,440
all sorts of quotes and things printed out.

1237
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:36,320
And one of them is, you can't pour from an empty cup.

1238
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:40,680
And that is something that I really try to live by because for years I tried to pour

1239
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:41,840
from an empty cup.

1240
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:47,620
You know, I tried to fit into an environment in which I didn't fit and it burnt me out.

1241
01:05:47,620 --> 01:05:52,480
And you know, I want to prevent my students from having to experience that, right?

1242
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:57,120
So I like to give them that reminder.

1243
01:05:57,120 --> 01:05:59,560
I like to model that reminder.

1244
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:04,040
You know, hey, my cup is full right now, I'm dealing with some stuff, I got a busy day,

1245
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:07,080
I can't give you the attention that you need.

1246
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:12,700
Can we schedule a time when I can be more fully present for you?

1247
01:06:12,700 --> 01:06:17,180
And I think that's a great thing, you know, because it shows students, it shows young

1248
01:06:17,180 --> 01:06:19,400
people that, like, that's okay.

1249
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:20,400
You're human.

1250
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:21,400
You are.

1251
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:22,400
It's authenticity.

1252
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:23,400
We all are.

1253
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:24,400
Exactly.

1254
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:28,280
You know, I don't want to put on, you know, some kind of a professional front.

1255
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:32,160
Really in my professional career, you know, I did that a lot, you know.

1256
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:39,400
I had a very distinct difference between me and the me that I presented in the workplace.

1257
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:44,920
And we talk a lot about that in my organizational behavior classes.

1258
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:49,040
And generally speaking, that's, you know, from my experience and from what I gather

1259
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:53,880
from the research, it's not a healthy long-term behavior.

1260
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:58,880
And I don't want my students, you know, having to go through that.

1261
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:02,880
You know, I try to teach them that, yeah, you know, you have to be professional at work,

1262
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:04,960
but you have to be you.

1263
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:11,120
Because if you are not yourself, if you are not authentic, you know, are you going to

1264
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:17,560
thrive or are you going to just kind of spend your days just, you know, wondering, oh, God,

1265
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:19,440
boy, when is the weekend here?

1266
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:22,040
You know, when am I going to be able to take that vacation?

1267
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:30,360
No, you really want to find something that meshes with who you are as a human and, you

1268
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:33,640
know, work in an environment that embraces you for who you are.

1269
01:07:33,640 --> 01:07:34,640
So.

1270
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:40,680
Well, I think that's a great takeaway, a great place to wrap it up.

1271
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:44,520
Thank you so much for being with us today and for opening up and for sharing your story.

1272
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:45,520
It was wonderful.

1273
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:46,960
Thank you for having me.

1274
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:47,960
Absolutely.

1275
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:51,320
Thanks for hanging out with us today.

1276
01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:55,960
Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts.

1277
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:59,960
Check out our show notes for bookmarks to your favorite sections and links to resources

1278
01:07:59,960 --> 01:08:02,000
that we mentioned in today's episode.

1279
01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:08,960
You can also find past episodes and see what's on deck for upcoming ones at pct.edu/podcast.

1281
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:12,480
And of course, we are open to your thoughts, ideas and suggestions.

1282
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:17,520
So send those over at podcast@pct.edu.

1283
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:18,520
It's been real.

1284
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:22,240
We'll catch you next time.